Because he is a comedian, I don't think many people know that he graduated from Harvard cum laude. He's no idiot.
Did anyone else notice the part where Al Franken is willing to let more people die from easily survivable cancers in an effort to prevent bankruptcies? That's essentially murdering Peter to pay Paul. The correct answer should have been that we combine what is best about the capitalistic system we already have with the better things from these other systems in a way that won't bankrupt America. What is causing problems is this "either-or" mentality Congress is taking along with an outright refusal to actually spend time beforehand to estimate the impacts these changes are going to have.
We already let people die to save money. What makes you think it would be more?
I didn't say more, Al Franken did. And "we" don't let people die to save money. I have never let a person die to save money.
He did not tear through anybody. He was very rude to the woman and misleading with his statistics. Of course no one in the countries he mentioned have filed bankrupcy for medical costs, they are not paying directly for medical costs so they could not be a reason for filing. Besides which it is very hard to file for bankrupcy in all of those countries. Very hard.
And Al Franken is certainly not stupid, he is however severly mentally ill. I am not talking about his politics, but just search for al and his temper.
Also, how is Bush an idiot when he graduated from Yale and Harvard? Oh yeah, his daddy got him in. But Obama getting in only due to affirmative action (because he could not get in if he put down that he was white) has no bearing on his intelligence. Al Franken mentioned cherry picking, seems to be going around more than the swine flu.
OK, idiot may be to strong a word for it, but check out his speeches when running for Governor of Texas and those he made while in the Whitehouse. Some thing drastic happened to him in the mean time, and it wasn't good!! Maybe Brain Damaged is a better choice of words!
Of course no one in the countries he mentioned have filed bankrupcy for medical costs, they are not paying directly for medical costs so they could not be a reason for filing.
Generally, the equivalent situation in those would be people unable to pay taxes. I believe the result is usually going to jail. I think I'd prefer to be bankrupt. The wonderful thing (for politicians) about taxes is that it is a nice lump sum, and you can't point out which tax pushed a person beyond the breaking point.
Youre right, he was absolutely awful at giving speeches. You ever see Obama when the telepromter goes down? Makes Biden look good.
I didn't know that countries that have nationalized health care have a chronic problem with people "not being able" to pay their taxes, and being pushed "beyond the breaking point." There must be a lot of jailed Europeans and Canadians.
I didn't know that countries that have nationalized health care have a chronic problem with people "not being able" to pay their taxes, and being pushed "beyond the breaking point."
Well, that's probably because I didn't say it, you just took things I said out of context and built a different statement entirely. I just stated the fact that not being able to pay taxes equates to jail in most countries, so to claim they have no bankruptcies due to health care issues is one of those half-truths politicians love to use. Again, since taxes are a lump sum taken from the citizens of a country, you can't even compare the number of citizens that can't pay taxes to the number of bankruptcies. There is no good comparison that can be made.
It's not a half truth. It's an absolute truth. And for what it's worth, in many european countries, the ordinary middle class person doesn't pay any more income tax than the average American. The difference in most european countries is at the top of the income strata; rich europeans pay far more tax than rich americans, on average. Wikipedia has a table of the top income tax brackets in industrialized nations somewhere.
And given the fact that almost all countries collect on a pay-as-you-earn basis, there isn't going to be a problem with people not being able to pay.
Besides, the whole argument is moot since all european countries pay less for healthcare on a per capita basis than america. They pay less in tax for healthcare than americans do for premiums, deductibles, out of pocket maximums, denied claims, etc- which is probably the reason most medical bankruptcies happen (btw, most medical bankruptcies are by those who had insurance).
I find it morally reprehensible that almost a million americans per year file bankruptcy because of medical bills (based on pre-2000 #s), with many of those losing their homes. I don't want to live in an America where a single working mom can have her life devastated because her child has autism, or a man reaching retirement is ruined by cancer. People need to stop throwing around tired cliches like "government does nothing right" and solve the fucking problem in the most efficient way possible. We have enough countries on earth to see what does and doesn't work. Our current system has been shown to be the most inefficient in the industrialized world, and single payer has been shown to be the most efficient.
Re: Bush and Franken education
The huge difference here is that Franken did not grow up wealthy and he graduated *CUM LAUDE* from Harvard. Bush, by his own admission, was a legacy admit who was a straight C student, and he was admitted to HBS through political connections.
It's not a half truth. It's an absolute truth.
Perhaps I am misusing the phrase "half-truth". It is a truth that is inapplicable to the discussion at hand. My point is that claiming no one has become bankrupt because of medical bills is meaningless. It isn't possible to become bankrupt because of medical bills because the payments are mixed together with taxes. A closer (though still meaningless comparison) is the question of how many are bankrupt because of taxes, which I can guarantee you is greater than zero. The ultimate question is how many of those people who became bankrupt from taxes would not have become bankrupt if they didn't have to pay the medical taxes? No one (on either side of the issue) has bothered to address that question (and I suspect it can't be answered with any reliability).
And for what it's worth, in many european countries, the ordinary middle class person doesn't pay any more income tax than the average American.
Now that is just not even remotely true. Wikipedia does have a graph of the mean income taxes across industrialized nations. I would point out that France and Germany, two of the nations cited by Franklin, have the second and third highest personal income taxes in the industrialized world as of 2005, both greater than fifty percent.
Besides, the whole argument is moot since all european countries pay less for healthcare on a per capita basis than america. They pay less in tax for healthcare than americans do for premiums, deductibles, out of pocket maximums, denied claims, etc- which is probably the reason most medical bankruptcies happen (btw, most medical bankruptcies are by those who had insurance).
The thing is, that relies on implementation. The question is not whether it is possible to run a better pre-paid health care plan than the insurance companies, but whether America can implement one. Here's a number for you. Zero studies have been performed researching that. Past history has shown that the American government performs much worse than private industry with regards to cost. If they want my vote, then they need to prove to me (as much as reasonably possible) they can do better, not "promise" me they will.
I find it morally reprehensible that almost a million Americans per year file bankruptcy because of medical bills (based on pre-2000 #s), with many of those losing their homes. I don't want to live in an America where a single working mom can have her life devastated because her child has autism, or a man reaching retirement is ruined by cancer.
I completely agree.
People need to stop throwing around tired cliches like "government does nothing right"...
Then the government needs to start doing things right. It is my support, along with all the other Americans, that they need to get this bill to be effective. I haven't seen them do much I would call "right", so I won't entrust them with my health until they do.
...and solve the fucking problem in the most efficient way possible. We have enough countries on earth to see what does and doesn't work. Our current system has been shown to be the most inefficient in the industrialized world, and single payer has been shown to be the most efficient.
That pretty much displays a complete ignorance of the way a government works. Different things work in different systems, and it is naive to believe that you can lift wholesale a portion of government from another system and just put it into a different one and have it work. My biggest problem with this is no work has been done to determine what is going to happen. The current government is not spending any time researching that, which is another thing showing me they can't do things correctly. Once we have actually studies that provides a reliable idea of what is the most efficient way possible, I'll be happy to stand behind it one hundred percent. Honestly, I suspect that a hybrid system, with portions of it socialized and portions of it run by free market will ultimately turn out to be the best thing for America.
The ultimate question is how many of those people who became bankrupt from taxes would not have become bankrupt if they didn't have to pay the medical taxes? No one (on either side of the issue) has bothered to address that question (and I suspect it can't be answered with any reliability).
Taxes in every country that I know of are collected on a pay-as-you-earn basis (off the top). It's hard to go bankrupt paying something that you never had (in your pocket) to begin with.
Now that is just not even remotely true.
It is true, and that wikipedia graph was not the one I was referencing. I was referencing one that showed the top income tax brackets for countries. Besides, the graph you linked does not take into consideration that european income taxes (germany aside) are inclusive. The U.S. figures do not take into account that most states add additional income taxes (on gross income) on top of that.
Different things work in different systems, and it is naive to believe that you can lift wholesale a portion of government from another system and just put it into a different one and have it work.
I think it's naive to think it can't. See Canada. NPR had a segment not too long ago about their transition. They had the same system we did until the 60s, when they lifted "wholesale" the single payer model from europe and implemented it in their own country. It was not a painless transition, but the vast majority of Canadians agree: they would not want our system.
Also see: Medicare. Note that it was lifted directly from the canadians during the johnson administration (they even lifted the name of canada's federal program). But they applied it only to retirees at the time. A similar story can be told about Australia. And the list goes on.
There is nothing special about our country. It can be done here. The only thing unique about our situation is that we have incredibly powerful lobbies determined to keep the system the way it is; other countries, due to statute, just don't have powerful lobbies like we do.
Taxes in every country that I know of are collected on a pay-as-you-earn basis (off the top). It's hard to go bankrupt paying something that you never had (in your pocket) to begin with.
At which point if you have no money but still owe the taxes, you go to jail, which again is why such comparisons are irrelevant. Just because they aren't collected doesn't mean the person doesn't owe them.
It is true, and that wikipedia graph was not the one I was referencing. I was referencing one that showed the top income tax brackets for countries. Besides, the graph you linked does not take into consideration that european income taxes (germany aside) are inclusive. The U.S. figures do not take into account that most states add additional income taxes (on gross income) on top of that.
If it is true, the prove it. If you know that there is a Wikipedia article in contention with the one I provided, then show me. As far as what the graph includes, do you mind telling me how you "know" the graph doesn't include state income taxes? There is nothing in the description to support that claim.
I think it's naive to think it can't...
Just to make sure I completely understand you, I'm going to ask you to clarify that statement. You honestly are going to sit there and tell me that you think it is naive to assume that the government can't make a mistake in implementing a portion of another foreign government within the American system of government, and that the known corrupt Congressmen and other officials in Washington won't potentially cause problems, and that there is no possible way implementing this could fail in any way? That seems to be what your statement implies, so if it is not, here is your chance to rephrase it.
Hardly a hot knife through butter. It sounded to me like just another elitist Senator berating someone simply because he can, and he did it because he's good enough, he's smart enough, and gosh-darn-it, people like him.
Your comment is hilarious. Franken does not need universal health care. He is a millionaire several times over and likely has the best insurance possible (and he can probably afford health care without it). When a rich person argues that poor people should have the same health care as he does, he's called elitist by the poors!
That god damn elitist. Get him the hell out of there and put that non-elitist Bush or Cheney in his place so that the poors can continue to have shit insurance while the rich get treated at the Mayo Clinic.
How it happened that people who argue for more equality are called elitists in America is beyond me.
Beating your head against a brick wall! Of course I AM half Polish and the old Polish saying goes, "If you beat your head against the wall long enough, the wall will come down" Worked for the Iron Curtain, but it seems some heads around here are actually harder, and more stubborn!
lamparty
I'm liking him more and more as time goes on! Hey, we had an Actor and an Idiot for President and they both served two terms, why not a Comedian, look out Obama here comes AL!