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Jun 03, 09 10:43 am
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We as citizens have the responsibility to stand up for the principles of freedom that made our country great

Thats MAKE our country great..Because We ARE GREAT.

Ya see a lot of Americans sneaking across the border to Cuba and Chavez land now dont ya??


 
Jun 03, 09 10:45 am
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Reply to SoR_AWC:

I agree with your comments, but the point is that many principals are eroding quickly...

The only reason people get lost in thought is because it's unfamiliar territory.



Jun 03, 09 11:08 am
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Surrender, it is too late. 68% of the US approves of Obama, 47% percent think capitalism has failed. In man on the street polls most agree in t he Communist philosophy "From each according to his ability, to each according to his need (or needs." Give up while you still can

A state is better governed which has but few laws, and those laws strictly observed. Some really wacky neocon named R. Decartes

 
Jun 03, 09 11:16 am
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Reply to steamed:

I have the ability to put a bullet in your head and you have the need. Surrender will never happen.

The only reason people get lost in thought is because it's unfamiliar territory.



Jun 03, 09 02:36 pm
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OK, there are so many things wrong with this I don't even know where to begin.

[mini-rant]What the hell is up with all of these overblown productions? Does every single political point need to be made accompanied by a flying flag and full orchestra? Do people actually change their opinions because of that?[mini-rant over]

One of the biggest things wrong with this is the founding fathers did not establish America under the rules of god(s). A lot of them were deists or atheists, so the statements you see talking about things granted by god(s) are an outright lie to attribute that to the beliefs or opinions of the founding fathers or the Constitution. Mankind is endowed certain inalienable rights by mankind, not by god(s), and we are not dependent on nor responsible to god(s) in our actions (and indeed, the Constitution expressly forbids it in our government, due to the separation of church and state), and free people can be maintained without religion (indeed, religion more often than not enslaves people). The idea that free people cannot remain free without virtue or morals is equally illogical, as freedom can only exist if some people can act without virtue or morals. America is not suppose to be some example of god's law, nor an inspiration to the human race, nor does it have any "destiny". Its only purpose is to free a person from tyranny. If that happens to inspire people, that's great, but it is not its intent.

The phrase "The most promising method of securing a virtuous people is electing a virtuous leader" would have most of the founding fathers reaching for their guns. The government was explicitly set up so that a simple man could run the government, and that simple person's foibles would be visible and correctable by the checks and balances system.

Finally, no where in the Constitution or the Bill of Rights does it promote family. Those documents are written to govern man (or to be more gender-neutral, a person). As far as the government should care, a family is nothing more than a collection of free people.

All that being said, there are a couple of points I agree with. America is suppose to be a republic and not a democracy, and the government is only suppose to provide equal rights, and not equal things. I do also like the bit about being friendly with all nations, and avoiding alliances. I also like the reminder that the people can overthrow the government if need be, a point I feel far too many Americans think we have grown beyond the need of (although we certainly haven't reached a point to need too yet). I also think the current state of the economy supports the idea of how destructive debt it.

You need only reflect that one of the best ways to get yourself a reputation as a dangerous citizen these days is to go about repeating the very phrases which our founding fathers used in the struggle for independence. - Charles Austin Beard

 
Jun 03, 09 04:45 pm
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Reply to jammer170:

Perhaps you should re-read the Declaration of Independence and then re-think your second paragraph...

"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness."

Also, a vast majority of the Foundering Fathers held firm religious beliefs, those deists or atheists you speak of were a small group.(I know how you are jammer, there is plenty of solid data on this point if you care to look for it)

p.s. I am not an overly religious person, just pointing out what I believe to be inaccuracies.

The only reason people get lost in thought is because it's unfamiliar territory.

 
Jun 03, 09 05:23 pm
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Reply to zekej3:

A couple of points.

The Declaration of Independence is not the foundation of our government. It is simply a document that we basically used to tell Great Britain to go screw themselves. Additionally, the references to a Creator and Nature's God are in fact deist phrases used by Thomas Jefferson. I am unaware of any references to one in the Constitution or the Bill of Rights (and I double-checked before I posted my first comment).

I will agree with you that most of the founding fathers claimed to be Christians, but if you read a lot of their private letters between them, it actually does appear like the majority of them were deists or atheists. The letters are harder to find, however, and unfortunately not taught in most school systems (although I wish they were required reading). I suggest you find and read those, and I'd be happy to discuss this more, but these comments are probably not the place to do so. Just as a quick sample, here are some of my favorite quotes from some founding fathers:

I do not believe in the creed professed by the Jewish church, by the Roman church, by the Greek church, by the Turkish church, by the Protestant church, nor by any church that I know of...Each of those churches accuse the other of unbelief; and for my own part, I disbelieve them all. - Thomas Paine

Twenty times in the course of my late reading, have I been upon the point of breaking out, "This would be the best of all possible worlds, if there were no religion in it!" - John Adams

Religious bondage shackles and debilitates the mind and unfits it for every noble enterprise. During almost fifteen centuries has the legal establishment of Christianity been on trial. What have been its fruits? More or less in all places, pride and indolence in the Clergy, ignorance and servility in the laity, in both, superstition, bigotry and persecution. - James Madison


And my favorite:

The government of the United States is not in any sense founded on the Christian religion. - The 1797 United States Senate, in a treaty signed with Tripoli

Yes, we have a federal document that states we are not founded on the Christian religion. So my second paragraph is actually very correct (barring the definition of "a lot" of the founding fathers and disputes of what they claimed versus their actual feelings, which is definitely open for debate). Regardless of the founding fathers personal beliefs, the majority of the founding fathers agreed that by law religion should not be allowed to interfere with government, and vice versa. The video above is clearly perpetuating lies that would be revealed even a cursory glance at the Bill of Rights.

You need only reflect that one of the best ways to get yourself a reputation as a dangerous citizen these days is to go about repeating the very phrases which our founding fathers used in the struggle for independence. - Charles Austin Beard



Jun 03, 09 04:09 pm
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Look at countries and civilizations where the government is run by religious institutions. Iran is a good contemporary example. What all of them have in common is that you wouldn't want to live in one.

Okay, maybe steamed would, but not in the one that you might think.

Ultimate Link Whore

 
Jun 03, 09 04:12 pm
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Reply to Gramps:

Islam is a cult, not a religion.

The only reason people get lost in thought is because it's unfamiliar territory.

 
Jun 03, 09 04:48 pm
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Reply to zekej3:

Whether it is or is not isn't relevant to my point. See also Europe under Christianity from about 500 AD to about 1600 AD, among many other examples.

Part of the wisdom of our Founding Fathers is the separation of Church and State, which benefits both aspects of our culture, allows us freedom that most cultures lack, and restricts the power of the government. All good things. The only downside is if you happen to be (or you support) someone who seeks absolute power to run the State with the authority of the State religion.

Ultimate Link Whore

 
Jun 03, 09 05:24 pm
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Reply to Gramps:

I don't disagree with your comments Gramps.

The only reason people get lost in thought is because it's unfamiliar territory.

 
Jun 03, 09 05:26 pm
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Reply to zekej3:

The difference between a cult and a religion is that religions simply have a better public relations department.

You need only reflect that one of the best ways to get yourself a reputation as a dangerous citizen these days is to go about repeating the very phrases which our founding fathers used in the struggle for independence. - Charles Austin Beard


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